Recast | Nick Johnson | The future of B2B distribution

Welcome to Commerce Famous, the biweekly podcast all about ecommerce and retail. In each episode, your host, Ben Marks, cuts through the clutter and takes you straight to the stories and experiences of those who shaped digital commerce as we know it today. While their names and faces might not be recognized on the street, each of Ben's guests are famous for commerce or commerce famous. Without further ado, your host, Ben Marks. Hey.

This is the Commerce Famous podcast. I'm your host, Ben Marks. And with me today, Nick Johnson from Aplico. Now Nick's experience, like so many of my guests so far, Nick's experience has been, broad, diverse. We're actually it's a pleasure.

I I didn't think I would ever be joined by the very first, Pokemon GO master. But, far from being the highlight of his career, this is this is maybe just a a a cherry on top. But Nick's experience really has to do with, you know, how businesses, can can best use tech and and tech strategically to build, build or at least augment what they're doing with platforms. So, Nick, welcome welcome to the Commerce Famous podcast. I have to ask, it's a it's a common theme for you, but but how did you how did you get your start?

Because I see your background. Looks like you were, you studied, you know, poli sci. Like, you you were in you were on the political side of things. And I guess there's a there's a certain there's a certain, closeness with between that and economics. But I'd love to just get get your take on how you ended up, where you are today.

Sure. Thanks, thanks for introduction, Ben. Great to be here. And, it should be a fun fun discussion. So I think, I cheated a little bit.

Our CEO, my coauthor, and and business partner, Alex, I've known him since middle school. So I joined Applaco about, ten years ago. Alex and I went to middle school together and then went to colleges on different coasts. But, he started Applaco, in college, basically maxed out his credit cards, started building apps, hence the name. Wow.

And had a couple number one apps in couple different app stores. And then a lot of people started asking, like, hey. Could you build apps for us? And this was, you know, 2008, 2009, right, when that was first taking off. So Appleco became, you know, over a few years, one of the largest app developers in the country.

I joined about ten years ago. Was working in at an economics think tank at the time. And, you know, we're starting to see more economic literature about this thing called, like, oh, multi sided platforms, platform business models. What is this thing? And at the same time, Aplico was working with, call it big traditional companies, Verizon, GM, and others like that that are just, like, you know, make me a marketing website or an app that helps me talk to my customers or manage their billing and this kind of stuff.

But also big tech companies like Apple, Google, and a bunch of startups that had, you know, went on to raise a bunch of funding. And there was a you know, Alex and I were talking about the way these companies were using technology, and it was pretty clear. Okay. There's something here where there's a different way certain company are using technology, and particularly we have the Internet, mobile apps, and that kind of stuff. So there's gonna be this, call it, you know, wave of mobile apps and this kind of stuff, but there's this tsunami of business model change coming behind that.

How How do we figure out what that is and focus on that as kind of the bigger strategic opportunity? So I I came on board ten years ago, I think next week, and joined to help kinda figure that out. Ultimately, the first couple years of that, became the book that Alex and I coauthored together, Modern Monopolies, which was published by, McMillan in 2016, which is all about this platform business model concept. Why why it's kind of become dominant then, which was I say, which I would say is a, much less controversial take today, than it was in 2016 when the birth book first came out, and why it's going to be effectively you know, these these companies, we call them modern monopolies for a reason because they tend to grow, to extreme scale, exert a lot of market power when successful. And we're seeing the fallout of that in a lot of the antitrust cases now being brought today by the justice department and others.

So that that's sort of the the origin story, so to speak. Well, okay. I mean, well, that's that's a heck of a I I'm trying to think if any of my friends from middle school, none of them I'm sure there have been plenty of of successes there, but I don't know that anyone's had quite that success and especially success in the direction of, you know, sort of being, first to just go out and build in a space and then responsible for helping even blue chip companies understand the space and understand the opportunity and then realize that, you know, on a long enough timeline, it seems like businesses successful businesses do tend to evolve into a platform play. I mean, it's not it's not uniform. There are, you know, providers of, providers of of commodities who don't necessarily become platforms.

But I think you even even have, like, the the Kloeckner story of of, you know, a a a, you know, a multibillion dollar metals provider, figuring out that, you know, maybe on the one hand, the next opportunity is, is becoming a platform marketplace. And I think platforms become incredibly important when you're looking at cross border. I can I can see the the amount of control it would let you let one exert in a, in a commodity market? But, I think also some of, somewhat of what what I've read about Aplico's, analysis is not so much about the opportunity of of doing. It's about the cost of not doing.

Right? So the, what's gonna happen if, if you don't do this. Commerce famous is proudly presented by Shopware, the leading open source ecommerce platform for mid market and lower enterprise merchants. More than 50,000 clients already process over $25,000,000,000 in annual GMV through Shopware. Find out more about Shopware and the best value in ecommerce at shopware.com.

Could you and and in some ways, I might I might say I might define that, not having your experience. Maybe this is naive, but, you know, sort of defining the negative space. And I think in business, defining that negative space can can be, in some ways, more powerful than just simply seeking a green pasture or a green field over horizon. So what kind of tools and abilities, do you bring to bear in order to define this and discover this kind of negative space? Basically, the realization that, hey, you know, in your industry, pretend, you know, pretend that you're you're speaking with a with a client.

You know, in your industry, if you're not doing this now, someone else is gonna do this. And and you might you might control the market now, but you might lose that. How do you how do you recognize that kind of stuff? Yeah. I think I think, it's a great question.

I think some of it is, you know, put yourselves in the shoes of, a Fortune 500 type company CEO. You know, you're a big company. You have a 100 things you could do today that are opportunities that could make you money. What's the one or two things you're gonna focus on tomorrow? It's the things that, have an opportunity cost if you don't act on them.

That thing's a big opportunity, but I could do it two years from now. I'm probably gonna do it two years from now. I'm not gonna do it today because I have so many things that are called a burning platform or on fire today that I need to deal with. So I think I think part of it is if you kind of understand the mindset of, you know, the folks that we work with, you've gotta make sure that that's you're speaking their language, and being able to identify what is their priorities and, you know, that you're addressing those things. And I think I think with that, we've started to see this as part of how we got into the space we really focus on today, which is b to b distribution.

B to b distribution is $8,000,000,000,000, of The US economy, roughly, like, a third of The US economy. It's massive space. But if you don't think about it or, you know, don't actively look for it, it can be kind of invisible at at times. It's kind of the thing that sits behind all of the stuff that we take for granted that we, you know, buy, use, and consume every day, auto parts, chemicals, food, industrial supplies, steel, all this kind of stuff that goes into everything all around us. But if you actually look where technology investment goes as well, you know, you have kind of, like, manufacturing here, retail, tech investment here, and distribution, for some reason, is kinda somewhere down here.

So we saw this need and gap in distribution. You know, Kloeckner, who we worked with shortly after the book came out, you know, that was one where we got to know the CEO at the time, Giesebert, who'd read our book and was like, yeah. That problem you described, we see that in our industry. And over time, that that that, naturally kind of, pattern recognition of, oh, seeing, actually, this is happening throughout b two b. If you looked at, you know, consumer retail, for example, if you're a big retailer, you kinda spotted Amazon a twenty year head start.

It's much tougher to catch up. But in b two b, that change is happening now. So that that, you know, question of what's the one or two things on on the top of the mind of the CEO where they have, you know, still the in consultant speak right to win, in in that market. B two b distribution, I think, is a very right market for that where technology is really just starting to penetrate over the last, kinda three to five years, and particularly marketplaces and, you know, digital commerce. And and it's a space that is really ripe for, incumbents to, succeed a little bit more than some of the folks in, other currently platform dominated sectors have been able to do.

Well, that's so it's an interesting point that you bring up. And and, you know, given my, you know, my fairly singular perspective coming from the ecommerce world, you know, for a long time, I remember as a developer in the early days, so this is this I said the early days, you know, but we'll say this is, like, 2008. So, like, the late two thousands, you know, dealing with companies. And they it was primarily, you know, building building ecommerce fronts for, for b to c, for b to c, but then there were b to b components or there are pure pure b b to b companies coming in. And you realize these people, like, the the the upper bound of their techno technical modernization was maybe sending a spreadsheet, you know, through email rather than a fax, or, you know, or receiving, right, as as far as part of procurement.

So, but as as as I think and the the theory that a lot of us have been operating on, I'm really curious to get your take on this, is that, as as the the the I'm I'm Gen X, but as the younger generations who have grown up where the Internet always existed, where, many of them have always, you know, as soon as their parents allowed, they had, they had, you know, the the world wide web in the in the palm of their hand. And and they have they have effectively sophisticated buying expectations, and they they expect these online easy buying expectation. And they now bring now that they're getting careers with some of these businesses, they're bringing those those same things that b to c, innovated on, be it personalization, you know, really in into you know, adaptive display, that they're bringing these expectations into their b to b, procurement journeys. And then even on the operation side, the people, within the b to b vendor space, they're also expecting these kind of enriched, frictionless experiences using the software and using software in a way where they don't even feel like they're using software. Is that does that scan with what you all have have seen?

Yes. I think I think the challenge is that, compared to what you see on the b to b side, b to b transactions and commerce is far more complex by couple orders of magnitude. That's been some of the slow and and slowness of it and some of the reason that, you know, things like fax machines and PDF emails and all this kind of stuff still persists. And, you know, some of the infrastructure that you need to get there, like payments for b two b has taken time to catch up to, you know, PayPal and the other things that we've taken for granted on the b two c side for a long time. I think the great news is it's it's there today.

You know, over the last few years, that that kind of foundational infrastructure has, gone up several notches. And we see the ecosystem of b to b tech startups today is just so far beyond what it was if you're looking out at the landscape a few years ago. It's really started to mature. I guess it's it's interesting because, you know, in the b to c world, the the, you know, purchase authority is well, there's the the transaction, the transaction, you know, values, they're they're much lower in in general. And then the, you know, the the purchase experience is really it's it's, you know, I've given you my money.

That is that is all the authority you need. But in the b two b world, you have you realize that you're you're kind of internalizing maybe someone else's, someone else's, corporate structure, approval structures. So you have to establish credit policies and then, you know, you've gotta figure out who's holding the bag here. If I'm, you know, if I'm an arms manufacturer and I'm I've got, you know, I've got a great order for a for a million units of something, but then I have to go procure raw raw materials. And, what if this deal goes through and I'm I'm left holding the bag?

That's, you're right. You're the payment space I have received in the last, few years, I have I've been party to numerous, almost innumerable, pitches around, around b two b payments. Is for you? Maybe is this sort of one of the the last big unsolved pieces, that that you you say is now is now solved? Or is there is there are there other challenges, other things that b two b as an as sort of as an approach will will need to tackle next?

Yeah. I think payments, depends on what area you operate in. I'd say it's mostly the thing where there are definitely tech startups out there that are solving it or have solved it. So I think, you know, if you've got a b two b payments challenge and you're not talking and looking out there in the tech landscape, you definitely should be. Okay.

There's probably someone out there that can help you. And and, you know, I think distributors in particular we see are definitely leaving money and opportunity on the table Yeah. In the payment space. So that's definitely a big theme. I think the the next evolution beyond that is, you know, how do you get more digital commerce going?

I think the big difference between b to b and b to c. B to c, you know, you've got, you know, what's often called app fatigue, which is like, oh, I need too many apps for, you know, for all these different things. Yeah. B two b is like that on steroids because of all the complexity that you just described. And if I'm trying to buy something, I don't wanna have to log in to your thing when I have to then go, many cases, like, duplicate that information in five different systems that I have to log in.

So what happens is basically, where the the interface fragments. So perfect example, amazon.com, amazon b two c. You pretty much just go to amazon.com or their app, and that's where you buy. Yeah. Amazon b two b, Amazon Business, which is now, you know, 25 plus billion GMV.

It's kind of their fastest growing thing. I think even faster than AWS at this point. Wow. Their b two b marketplace effectively. That has over a 100 different e procurement integrations.

So they're actually integrating into the software that business users are using to manage their business. You know, if you're in a bigger organization, stuff like SAP, Ariba, and things that you use for, you know, manage procurement for a procurement department. But if you're a smaller company, as there's a proliferation of Mhmm. You know, b to d SaaS tools that you use to manage your business, whether you're a hair salon Yeah. A steel fabricator, you know, a food a a small food CPG brand.

That there everything you could imagine, there's these kind of vertical specific interfaces. And if you are trying to sell, whether you're a distributor, a marketplace, into those b to b customers, you gotta figure out how you penetrate that. Because if you try to make everyone come to you, which was what I would call the one point o version of b to b commerce, everyone has a customer portal and customers hated it. And now now this, theme is what I would call e procurement, where this kind of embedding into the interfaces that customers are using is really kind of opening up and sort of democratizing access to digital commerce to, the whole b two b. It's it's it's interesting.

And to me, that sounds like, you know, another example of go where your customers are. Right? And and, I guess in the early days, it would have been easy enough to have a novel experience. But in the end, when, you know, when most businesses aggregate from other suppliers, yeah, it makes sense that that that you just wanna have this one, the interface that you know. And I can I can also see that the scaler here is, like, it's not just number of solutions by vertical?

It's sort of number of solutions by vertical, by geography. Yeah. And then by sector, you know, if you're serving government versus, private. Yeah. That that seems that seems, it seems like there might there might be a need for for a company that could actually, sort of distill these problems down and, and and give competent consultative advice here.

Probably brings us around back to around to Aplico. And then, I'd like to actually mention so this, you know, you, you coauthored a book, Modern Monopolies, came out in 2016, has been, was I see among the accolades was referenced by many of the big analyst, firms. And, yeah, I'm curious because things move you know, it's funny. Enterprise might move glacially, but the technology and the approach, basically, how ecommerce works, it it it evolves so quickly. So, yep, seven years ago is a lifetime.

How how well has have the the the predictions and the analyses in, in Modern Monopolies, still available on amazon.com, by the way, how how well have those held up, and and have you, you know, have you had a chance to revisit this this content? Yeah. I think it's it's a great question. I think, you know, a big part of writing a book is trying to build stories that make it, not put people to sleep. So I would say a lot of the stories and things that were were in the book that hopefully didn't put people to sleep, you know, some of those things have evolved.

And, you know, if you were to read it today, soon say, oh, you know, things are different now. We talk about Uber before it went public and, you know, a lot a lot of the things that have happened today with Uber and some of the controversies. I think Travis was still CEO when we wrote the book. Yeah. So, you know, it's it there's some things that are different world, but I think we were writing the book from a perspective of how do you kind of explain to a business audience in 2016 that there's this new business model that is about to take over the world and in some ways already has.

And this is kinda be basically coming into every part of the economy and increasingly kind of dominating and becoming effectively the new version of the monopolies that we're used to of of years past. I would say that prediction has held up pretty well if you, look in any of the tech news that you see, day to day and the SEC cases and the European equivalent and so on. It it that's topical today and much less controversial of a take. And, you know, we we had some publications, for example, in the time the book came out that we were kind of promoting the book and writing it, and they're like, oh, you can't call those monopolies. We'll get sued.

And that is not a controversial thing to say today that these businesses are monopolies. Maybe in a court of law, but certainly not in the court of public opinion. And I think I think that, you know, the proliferation of these platform business models and that, you know, we talk about in the book and kind of the core frameworks of what is a platform, how does it work, what are the different types and permutations of this business model. I think that stuff has has stood the test of time pretty well. You know, I think some of the some of the examples would be different if we were to rewrite the book today or do a version two.

You know, for example, the the, you know, b to b distribution space and kind of the proliferation of b to b marketplaces Wasn't really a thing in 2016. You know, if you would if you'd rewritten the book in 2019, that would have been one of the bigger trends and, you know, things where we said is gonna get much bigger and really has played out over the last, few years. Well, yeah, I mean, a couple things there. I I maybe even a few things. So, yeah, the marketplace I mean, I I remember when Miracle first popped up on the scene.

Right? And and then even then in the time and I've had some I've had some some colleagues that have gone over, from from my past, have gone over there and and just watching watching Miracle evolve and then become almost, you know, becoming a plat a sort of a meta platform, a platform unto itself. And it does remind one that that, you know, that that even the the big providers today, the ones that I think could be called, or maybe considered monopolies. And I'm not a lawyer or a judge or a jury, so I'm certainly not not one assigning assigning this moniker to anyone. I said that for the legal team.

But, you know, I mean, Facebook started, you know, as a as a way to, just kind of well, actually, some maybe some some slightly dubious purposes in the beginning, but but eventually, you know, becomes a way to to let people at higher higher learning institutions, you know, just just catch up with each other. But because of their success, yes, they they end up creating a category and then become monopolistic or potentially monopolistic in their own category. I mean, I could almost see from a founder's perspective, like, hey. This didn't exist before we invented it, and now you're coming after us for having been so successful. Well, yeah, I I get it.

But that also is an interesting if I if I remember correctly, just that is that is, in in some ways, something I see Aplico doing, which is is really helping businesses succeed even against the weight of or, you know, maybe via some of the the the the channels that exist because of these these these category creating titans. Can can can you can you kinda go into that a little bit more? Because I think it's it is essential to to understand if if I'm a if I'm a if I'm a a large business with this problem and the challenge, the imperative to to become a platform, how I can use, maybe the tools that exist in someone else's playground, but retain enough of my identity, brand control, access to customer? At times, I can imagine that might even be a tough needle to threat. How do you all approach that that kind of problem space?

Yeah. I would say, unfortunately, there's no silver bullet. You know, it's very unique on the industry. You know, if you're a company, what is your position in that industry? You know, how mature is, you know, tech or some of the platform businesses coming in your industry?

And you've gotta figure out, basically, do I defend? Do I get super aggressive and go after it and try to capture the opportunity myself? Or do I, you know, try to partner, and kind of ride the wave, but do so in a way that kinda defends, you know, my place in the ecosystem? You know, some mix of the three, is typically the right answer. And and, you know, ultimately, we see these businesses taking off and and I think more in b two b, where, because of the complexity, and in some cases also, you know, regulation around certain types of goods, chemicals would be an example of that, that, that there's kind of a wall that a lot of these market places and platform businesses start to hit where they go, oh, actually, there's a reason some of these incumbents exist.

And, you know, for example, if you're a chemical distributor, you've got a lot of physical assets that's very hard to replicate if you're a digital company that you probably don't wanna own if you're a digital company. So how do you how do you navigate the fact that, yes, you can create a lot of value, but at the end of the day, the stuff still has to get from point a to point b. Mhmm. And that requires, in some cases, some pretty specialized capabilities in order to do that. I think I think that that kind of collision creates opportunities for incumbents that have a lot of advantages to say, how do we how do we extract our value?

And I think particularly in today's environment where capital is a little less abundant, when the printing press has been turned off, than it was over the last few years. Valuations have come down. Startups, startingly start to think, oh, I need to make this weird thing called profit. That that, you know, the the environment we've seen for strategics broadly, but I think particularly in b two b and b two b distribution has become a lot more favorable where all the stuff that they used to be able to buy with all that nice cheap capital, called scale, these distributors now kind of are a gateway that can give you a lot of that and give you access to a lot of that. So we see a lot of folks that might have had a more aggressive posture from the tech world in years past starting to take a much more conciliatory approach, to, you know, incumbents and distribution and thinking, oh, how do I actually work with and enable?

And in some cases, that means pivots, where we've seen some marketplaces, start to pivot away from that and then start to enable, like, a SaaS offering alongside that where they say, actually, we've built all this great technology that can, enable distribution when, you know, maybe in years past, we talked about cutting out distribution and enabling, you know, supplier direct and all these kinds of themes. So I think you've seen a a shift in the market, and I think in a way that that is favorable to incumbents. And and I think that that, in some ways is a healthy correction from some of the mania that we had, in years past. Yeah. I can, I mean, I can echo that?

On on our end, there have been some incredibly bright people who were very good at raising money, but not so much effective at actually delivering, like, real products and services. And the problem is, you know, when you have all this all this money floating around, they they take a lot of the oxygen out of the room. Right? And it it does you know, and and incumbent can I don't know? I mean, maybe it's the Gen x or in me, but, you know, incumbent always just seems like, you know, I'm I'm always going for the underdog.

But now that I'm kind of the man, I'm in my forties, so I can call myself the man. It's it it is good to see companies with actual services, actual products, actual not just revenue, but actual profits be able to conduct business, without having to fight this this, you know, tsunami of of just, you know, unintelligent capital. So jumping jumping maybe from I I guess one of the things that I'm I'm I'm curious is, you know, someone in your position, you know, just clearly bright analytical approach to to things is there's there's there's two questions I'd like to ask here. You know, one, the one I'd like you to answer second, I'll ask right now. And that is, you know, if if I'm wondering among your many, many, many case studies in your decade with Aplico, What which which one really, you know, are you the most proud of or was, like, maybe the the most difficult problem to solve?

Tell me about that. But all but before you answer that, I'd really like to understand this thing called, you know, platform platforms are are the bee's knees. They are they are taking over in many verticals even in the what is our what did our president call it? The the the the dad bods or the flyover states of commerce, right, these these multibillion dollar businesses, brands that no one knows about, like they know about Nike, but yet they're every like, they're they're a part of your life every day. So platform's incredibly important for them now.

What what's coming next? What what what comes after the the the great platforming? Or is this a pinnacle? Do we just better flesh out platforms? So platforms, what's next?

And then what's your what's your favorite case study and why? Great questions, Ben. I think on the first question, I think we're still in the midst of, probably a ten to another fifteen years of kind of platform penetration and growth in b two b. I think, you know, the the the growth is, you know, in some cases quite strong. But if you look at, like, b two b marketplaces compared to $8,000,000,000,000 of b two b distribution, we do a top 50 b two b marketplace report, every year, next edition coming out sometime in the next couple months here.

But if you look at kind of historical kinda GMV, call it, of the the top marketplaces, it's places, it's in the in the low to mid hundreds of millions, and then you compare that to $8,000,000,000,000 of b to b commerce through distribution. We're still talking about relative peanuts. And that's true in a lot of, you know, complex industries, parts of finance, health care, health insurance, things like that, where there's a lot of room for these business models to grow and for the way that business has done to change. I think a lot of where you actually see that happen faster is in some emerging markets that might have skipped a step and not have, you know, good enough, call it solutions that they grew up on, you know, that have been around with large incumbents for decades. So they they they skip some steps and kind of accelerate the process, and you see some of these platforms actually emerge faster over there.

I think, well, so to that was kinda part one of your question. I think we're still quite in the middle of that. I think you see trends that come up every few years. Crypto and blockchain was a big one. Oh, is that gonna, you know, decentralize everything and then platforms?

I was somewhat skeptical of that. Hasn't really happened. Don't expect it to happen. I think what it does is potentially shift, you know, the balance of power between users and platforms to some degree as some of those things take off, but I don't think you're gonna see the elimination of platform business models as a key factor in the economy. I think, you know, other things like AI, you know, which has been the, you know, the big hot topic these days, which is really you know, when people talk about AI, I'm always like, okay.

Which version do you mean? Because, you know, you're talking about, you know, LLMs is the, you know, really what people will mean when they say, what do you think about AI today? Which is a specific, you know, instantiation of that, not sort of AI broadly. But I think I think, you know, that's gonna be something that, in many cases, augments and helps platform businesses get into new areas of the economy as kind of technology continues to, proliferate in areas that have have, I'd say, been a little more hesitant, to adopt it over the years, like b two b. And so I I don't see this going away.

I think certainly, for most of my career, it's gonna be a big topic and a big theme. And I think, you know, what comes next, we'll have to see what, you know, weird device Apple or someone else, comes up with at some point in the few years. There's you know, Mark Zuckerberg certainly spend a lot of money on it as are others. So I'm sure, something new will come along that will, change the paradigm a little bit. And and, you know, someone smarter than younger than me at that point will write a book about it and, you know, maybe I'll ride right off into the sunset.

We'll see. But, so that's question question number one. Question number two, I think the big, you know, exciting thing from our perspective, our business, you know, historically has been kind of strategic buy side advisory based where we work with distributors, on kind of tech partnerships and then some investments in m and a. And we are working with the CEOs of these companies on typically one of the, like, one or two biggest problems. Fun thing to work up and do every day.

The new part of our business, a newer part of our business, basically with some folks that we've worked with for a while, we closed a VC fund, earlier this year, which is basically focused on, investing in tech startups that enable distribution and kind of helping fill that gap that I described earlier of, you know, essentially very big underinvestment in technology, in in distribution compared to the size and impact of distribution. So our our, inaugural fund essentially, which is backed by six kind of large b to b distributors, is is really focused on how do we fill that gap in b to b. We also do an event, you know, associated with that, which is actually next week in Austin, with the NAW. They're the the National Association of Wholesalers, kinda one of the big you know, I'd say the big distributor association in The US. I have the pleasure of doing our second annual, innovator summit with them where we invite, you know, a dozen or so of the top tech start ups and get them in a room with, distributors and let them, talk and hopefully start working with each other.

So kind of filling that gap and and, you know, helping helping b two b broadly as industry embrace technology, is is really kind of our our reason for being and really kind of a core part of our ethos. And, you know, reason for why, if you go back to the the modern monopolies theme, we would love to see Amazon not dominate b two b the way they have b two c retail as an example or, you know, the way Facebook and Google eviscerated the media industry. We think, distributors do a lot of good and valuable things, and it's really, in many cases, kind of like the blue collar bedrock of our economy. It has been for decades and decades, if not longer. And we think that they should stick around and and, you know, we're there to help make sure that they're getting the right trusted technology partners, and and kind of enabling that.

So I think that that in terms of, I would say, developments, for Appleco, with the the growth into Aplico Capital Yep. Has been pretty exciting. Well, that's I mean, and I just really because it becomes it really is the means to the, you know, to to the end, you know, as you say it, of making sure that these these businesses, you know, they have a fighting chance actually when it comes down to it, isn't it? And and I and believe me, my empathy there is huge. There's a reason, you know, open source has always been at the kind of the forefront of solving, like, solving b to b, use cases, when it when it b to b commerce cases because, as you know, it's an incredibly nuanced industry.

It takes the the the arbitrary complexity of just b to c and, you know, turns it on its head and applies a geometric function and and, and then you you you you get down into, you know, the most nuance of problems. So I I've enjoyed I've I've always enjoyed trying to solve for these situations because it's so clear that there's nothing out there. There is no as you said earlier, there's no there's no silver bullet, and and we're far away from there ever being one. And I, actually, I mistrust there ever could be a silver bullet there unless we just do nothing and and the the default of Amazon eating everyone's lunch, happens. Now, speaking of hunting down solutions, I would be, terribly remiss if I did not bring out your superlative of being the original Pokemon Go master, the first person to catch all catch them all in the world.

And as we said in the run up to this, I I I didn't I didn't fail to appreciate that, like, you know, what Niantic did was brilliant, you know, taking this this this this popular outlet, combining you know, this was one of the first, you know, really broadly distributed and consumed, blended, you know, effectively in augmented reality. And I remember sitting I live in a kind of a vacation, destination, and I remember my wife and I sitting there, and I all of a sudden, I hear families kinda running around in the streets in a way that I'm not used to, because people always dragging stuff to the beach. That has a certain sound to it, but it's just, you know, over here. Over here. And then I realized, oh, they're playing Pokemon Go.

They're they're catching them. And in my speaking career, there were literally people who would skip speakers' dinners because they'd have to go catch something, you know, down at Sydney Harbour Bridge or, you know, by the Eiffel Tower. Of course, you must have been you you must have gotten into this, but but, you know, just just, you know, out of personal out of personal interest, but, I mean, I think you even can also appreciate the platform nature of of of what was happening there and what a cool moment that was. Now was that experience as cool as it sounds? I mean, getting getting, you know, partnering with big brands and being flown all over and and getting to tell this exciting story of something that people have enjoyed?

Yeah. I'd say it was a pretty pretty singular experience. And and, you know, I think definitely underlined for me the power of technology to connect people. You know, the short version of of what happened, basically, I would go out, after work and walk, I don't know, eight to 10 miles a day walking around catching Pokemon. I had the good fortune, of being in New York City, which for some reason was like the mecca of Pokemon Go where you could get everything, you know, depending on where you went and just, I'd say by a mix of networking and a lot of walking and a lot of good luck, basically caught all the ones that you could get in The US, sometime late at night when I probably should not have been out walking, and probably should have been, you know, back home in bed.

But what can you do? Put it up on Reddit. Basically, said put a screenshot, like, oh, I caught everything. And I woke up the next morning, and it was on, like, the front page of Reddit. And I was like, oh, I guess no one had done this yet.

So I contacted a friend of mine, who worked at Business Insider at the time. Shout out to Matt Weinberger, who was, covering Pokemon Go and then, like, done an interview with, John Henke, the inter the CEO of Niantic and all this kind of stuff. I was like, I don't know. Do you wanna do an interview? He was like, yeah.

Of course. So I said, great. Put in there, you know, that I want a couple of travel companies to sponsor me to go around the world. There were three region specific ones that you couldn't get in The US. And so published that and, you know, did a bunch of other crazy press in The US, like Good Morning America and CNN and, I can't even remember what else, GQ, which was kinda funny.

And and, then I got basically cold called a bunch of travel companies and got Marriott rewards and Expedia to sponsor me to basically fly around the world, and, they were quite happy. Did a bunch of press for them, and, it turned out very well for them in terms of ROI perspective and basically got a free trip around the world to catch Pokemon and meet people. And you would go pretty much everywhere you went, you would see, as you were describing, Ben, these just, like, literal stampedes of people together catching Pokemon. Yeah. And I want to I remember in Tokyo, there was a park that was a massive park that I was in that was just filled with people from, like, ages one to 85.

And they were all there just, like, families would go out and play together and, like, go go walk and, you know, catch Pokemon. It was a wild experience, you know, particularly through the the lens of, you know, what what I call today the before time, before we had COVID. Hard to imagine today, but it it was a pretty wild experience and just being able to go all over the world and kind of see these communities of people and meet and talk to people that all have this kind of one thing in common that we're connected, you know, essentially by technology was was a pretty wild experience. And and and and I think that's a that's a great place for us to leave it just with with, you know, technology. You know, technology is is there.

It it evolves, you know, sort of at well, so far. Until now, it evolves at our at our by our own design. But it is amazing what happens when, when you do bring people together, whether it is, you know, purely entertaining or, whether it's for transacting in business. And and it's it's good to know that there are, you know, that there are others out there, I guess, if I may, like myself who just who who really enjoy helping helping businesses find the right tools and helping them, helping them win and succeed when when when they really deserve to win and succeed. That's that's that's something I think you can you can easily sleep well every night, when you're working towards that towards that aim.

Well, Nick, absolute pleasure to have you on. I I know there's there's plenty more we could cover. We may have to, revisit this, and I I certainly I hope to catch up with you sometime in person, and, we might have to look at, seeing if we can get you out to a, to a Shopware event or some other ecommerce industry event would be would be great to have. Awesome. Thanks for having me, Ben.

It's been a lot of fun.