024 | Brian Beck | The B2B commerce evolution | Season 2 opener!

Welcome to Commerce Famous, the biweekly podcast all about ecommerce and retail. In each episode, your host, Ben Marks, cuts through the clutter and takes you straight to the stories and experiences of those who shaped digital commerce as we know it today. While their names and faces might not be recognized on the street, each of Ben's guests are famous for commerce or commerce famous. Without further ado, your host, Ben Marks. Hey, everyone.

Welcome to Commerce Famous. This is your host, Ben Marks. This is episode one of season two. And with me today is Brian Beck, a twenty five year veteran of ecommerce and an absolute legend in the b to b space. Brian wrote a book back in 2018, billion dollar b to b ecommerce, and, curates since 2021, the master b to b community for b to b professionals, and is also managing director of Anceba, the only agency focused exclusively on helping b to b firms, grow on Amazon.

Brian, welcome to Commerce Famous. Hey, Ben. Thanks thanks for having me, and it's it's great to be on a podcast called Commerce Famous. My goodness. That's a that's a great great name.

I'm not sure you're gonna live up to the expectation there, but glad to be here with you. This is how you know you've arrived. I I I know there was a big question in your mind, but you can you can just go ahead. I don't know if you if you evaluate your own KPIs, but you can just just just tick them all off for the, for the rest of the year. Now you you were, so in the b two b world, I mean, I think you're you're a really well well known, well known personality, and and value driver.

You are, I think you were in Chicago recently for the b two b form there. Yes. What I'm actually because I'm really just jealous that I wasn't there. What was that event like? My I know my my colleagues were were all thrilled.

I know my colleagues from other platforms were all thrilled. This seemed like just an amazing event. Yeah. B two b so, yeah, I think you're referring to the b two b online conference, which, happened in Chicago recently. And, you know, it's interesting, Ben, about, about that.

I mean, it's it's been a fascinating journey particularly over the last ten years as it relates to how b two b is now coming to the table for ecommerce. And b two b, what I'm what I mean by the way I define it just sort of everyone, you know, we're on the same wavelength is, you know, manufacturers and distributors and some degree, you know, brands, you know, doing using digital channels to meet the needs of today's b two b buyer. Right? So, you know, really, it's it's it's the evolution we saw in b two c, now here in b two b. And the conference that you you asked about was, really an indication, I think, of where the industry is.

And we're getting now, you know, a thousand people at at this at these shows where, you know, just a few years ago, it was a few 100, you know, even coming out of the pandemic. So it's it's really and I was exciting to see some common themes emerged around some of the challenges and opportunities companies are facing in b two b. Ecommerce is, and I kinda define ecommerce is kind of a, you know, kind of almost too narrow definition these days because it's really about digital and how it affects every aspect of the business. But it was great to see all kinds of companies coming out. And then, of course, the solution provider, you know, community is is very robust these days and gives gives these folks a lot of options, which is exciting.

Yeah. I mean, you know, one of the I it it is interesting to to see how how sentiments around the the digital evolution of of b two b, have have have unfolded. You the the prevailing, prevailing sort of group think on this was, well, you know, just as as as people who have who have grown up with the Internet sort of always there and always on and bringing their sort of their own personal b to c in their consumer expectations into their roles inside b to b organizations that, you know, the that the effectively were just, oh, b to b is just is is b to b is ten years behind where what b to c is. But I think what we're finally people are speaking up about is, no. That's that's it's it's still a completely it's or it's a very different beast in there because there are different needs.

There are For sure. There are different demands, expectations. And, you know, and that's, you know, from the platform side, which has been my expertise for for many years, if you call it expertise Yeah. You know, I've always known that, and and what we've seen is that platforms the platforms that do well in this space, they're either, you know, part of a larger offering, right, that that that that the business is is is using to operate. So just it's a it's another it's another channel inside someone some other some other, vendor's offering.

But the real for me, the ones that have made the most impact are the ones that allow the most just the most arbitrary level of customization and and and adaptation. Yeah. That's that's What what can you like, so I'd I'd really love to to to kind of dig into this, you know, this evolution away from the, you know, b to b is just really slow b to c. Yeah. Right.

Well, it's it's fascinating because there is so much. And I I I it it's funny. The first chapter of my book, I say the time is now, and it's it's really the first part of your statement there, which is you know, look. Today, 75% of buyers in the b to b side are millennials or Gen z. Right?

These folks, you know, they were born, you know, in the last thirty years, forty years. And they're and these folks are have become the majority of the buyer, and their expectation is that the seller have a, an experience that's easy for them to use. And the other thing I talk a lot about in my book is, you know, the success in b two b is making the buyer's job easier. It's different than b two c. I spent seventeen years been in the b two c side.

I think, you know, we that's where we first got to know each other, around ecommerce and Harbor Freight Tools and PacSun, bunch of other places. And b to b is different. I mean, it's it's it's it's it's about making that buyer's job easier. Right? And so I I but that expectation is there, and it's there's a lot of commonality with b to c in the sense of some of the best practices.

But there's also to your point on customization, there is a lot of unique need that buyers have in b to b that goes far beyond what a b to c, you know, platform or b to c experience delivers. You know, custom products, custom pricing, configurations, and and, you know, configure price quote where people need to build certain, you know, types and and applications for their business use. And that introduces complexity that has to be handled in the digital experience that, you know, a standardized, you know, kind of consumer ecommerce experience doesn't deliver. If you present that and it doesn't make the buyer's job easier, you're not gonna succeed. So, yeah, there's the buyer's expectation, but then there's another level of complexity.

The good news is, as you know, Ben, I mean, solutions have evolved in B 2 B, right, to accommodate a lot of these, which is fantastic. So so you're seeing that, you know, that that that that it is now the walls are coming down related to the success of digital and how it can support transactions, and and research and really every aspect of the customer experience in B 2 B. Commerce famous is proudly presented by Shopware, the leading open source ecommerce platform for mid market and lower enterprise merchants. More than 50,000 clients already processed over $25,000,000,000 in annual GMV through Shopware. Find out more about Shopware and the best value in ecommerce at shopware.com.

This this notion that the walls are coming down, the that that that I guess I would it be fair to say that you, an example of this is that you have you have this evolution of platforms who are able to facilitate, and and empower empower, you know, both the buyer the buyer experience and the seller's requirements, you know, as as as nuanced as they might be. I mean, for me, I think a a helpful context is that back in the day, Magento as a platform, before it even had a b to b offering, became a market leader in b to b, and and that is no small feat. I've mentioned it before on the podcast, but it really it still remains a fascinating outcome that that that that there wasn't any offering there. And I think that's kind of a that's a function of both the the evolution that was happening at the time, but, also, it's just it's really damn hard. And you had agencies saying, like, well, there's unmet need here, and we have the technical wherewithal to actually deliver.

And we're going to do that in spite of in spite of working with a platform that is that is inherently b to c, and there are a lot of challenges with that. The most notable, I think, is you one you mentioned, which is custom based on custom, like, price lists, you know, per customer pricing. It it it seems from a I can see in a in a software, like, in a development backlog, oh, well, there's something we can work on. But when it can get down to it, that that becomes incredibly complex when you add that in as another factor in indexation and and a host of other problems, let alone needing to understand organizational hierarchy and privileges and then these different oh, we always we'd have to introduce credit facilities. It's it it really is this this this this sort of level far and above what, honestly, what b to c platforms have to deal with.

Well, if you look I mean, you mentioned Magento as as an interesting example. I mean, Harbor Freight Tools was on Magento. Now we were principally consumer, but we also had a lot of businesses buying from us. I think the reason that, you know, Magento really in the, you know, the early years, and I'm talking about, you know, a b to b ten, fifteen years ago, captured more shares because it was more of an open source Yeah. You know, inherently platform.

So it could allow for some of that flexibility and customization because yes. I mean, think about you know, you're talking about pricing customization, right, and unique price books and things. Think about the complexity of delivering that when a company, a b to b company might have, multiple you know, thousands of contracts for each, you know, with individual customers. Each one of those contracts has a different price book associated to it, and it's housed in maybe three or four different ERPs. You've got no one single source of truth on pricing and that and then the ecomm system has to consume that, understand who that customer is, present that without slowing everything down.

Then think about search, presenting pricing and search result. I mean, just the order of complexity, magnitude of complexity in b two b is much more significant. And, you know, if you look at the history too, Ben, you know, the the back in the day back in the day, we're still still living with this. A lot of a lot of companies have, you know, ecommerce, platforms they built themselves. You know, the, you know, some of the big distributors out there, you know, think about the, you know, the grangers and the fastenals and the MSCs and motion industries and, you know, all Thermo Fishers and all these companies that have, you know, significant ecommerce platform.

They a lot of them built those Yep. Technologies themselves because nothing existed really or they highly customized something that was in market. But these capabilities now, are much more commonly available because the the opportunity is huge, right, for these companies Yeah. To digitally transfer. It's been a it's been a position for, you know, for my my current employer shop where, and and as well as some of our friends out there, like at, you know, Future Commerce and others that, you know, you have this you have this this unmet you sort of the you have this mid market that of businesses, especially b two b, that are not noteworthy to talk about.

Right? They're they're they're not they're not logos that anyone understands but or or is aware of, but but they're literally in everything in your house. They make your life possible, yet they've been going at it alone for so long. I I wanted to actually bring this out because your book, which we should not fail to mention the title billion if I didn't already, billion dollar b to b ecommerce, came out in 2018. One of one of your one of your highlights from there, steps for selecting an ecommerce platform.

I'm gonna pull out another topic in just a second, but first I wanted to say, you know, how do you what what does I mean, what do you say when you're when you're when you're having these conversations and and you have these businesses that they they built up, they have a bespoke and truly purpose built or so heavily customized, offering that it's effectively bespoke. What is that what is that transformation moment like for them when they say, you know what? We are how do we how how are we balancing what we've the value and utility of what we've built against knowing that, you you know, the the offerings are getting better and better. And what is that crossover point where we should make the investment? Yeah.

Well, some it's funny you mentioned that, but, I mean, some of these big companies, and I talked to them. So, you know, in our, you know, our, we'll talk a little bit about the master B2B thought leadership and community, series that that I've developed, with some folks. But we'll be here a lot. And I talk to a lot of those companies that are at that inflection point, actually. Because what happens is, you know, when you get to a certain point in developing your own platform, all of a sudden, you you you step back even if you got significant revenue running through it, etcetera, and say, well, wait.

I am recreating features and capabilities that exist in the market. I'm not a software company. What am I truly best in the world at? Right? And how do you it's a very, very tough, thing to say if you've invested hundreds of millions in some cases or even billions in platforms that are, you know, that are yours.

Now you're managing them, and you're trying to keep up with ecommerce platforms and point solutions and I mean, there's so much innovation happening everywhere with payments and search and AI driven content, CMS, hyper relevant experiences. How do you keep up with that if you're an industrial distributor, for example? And the question is, should you? I argue you shouldn't. You know, and in that moment, when that's reached, you know, when this says, heck, you know, we we're not best in the world at this.

There's billions of dollars or hundreds of millions being invested in companies that, you know, by PE, private equity, and venture capital to go in and build best of breed solutions and to keep up with and experiment with AI and how that's being used across all these different areas. You know, you make a decision to say, you know and it has to come from the top of the organization and say, okay. We're gonna stop being a saw or trying to be a software company, and we're gonna start to, you know, become a, what you know, really focusing on what we do best. Now it's it could be a painful transition for some of these companies, which is why I say it's, you know, Ben, it's easier, you know, almost at this point if you haven't started yet. Right.

Well, you know, you were so you just so mastering b two b, actually, I'm gonna interrupt my my my previous promise to dig into another bullet point from billion dollar b two b. Oh, great. But, yeah, you now you you invoked, master b two b, the the the community that you've built there. And, one of the one of the, public, out outputs from this is this, is this fireside chat. And I think you just had one.

You just had one, and you were you were, I think you were chatting with the chief digital officer from US Electrical Services. And Right. One of the big the big, you know, topic there is is, you know, the like, getting executive buy in for digital transformation. This this is the thing. And and I've been maybe maybe I'm way off, but I keep going back to I keep going back to when I was in my teens, and I had I had the the first car.

And you love that first car. It's you do everything to make that car yours. But then at some point, as you start to become a functioning adult with responsibilities and you start having more and more bills to pay and you realize, well, wait. Okay. I'm I'm now having to spend x amount just to keep the thing on the road, let alone benefiting from the new features that are coming out in new cars automatically just just off the showroom floor.

That that that kind of okay. Build versus buy, you know, and and but, also, I think there's another there's another concept here that that that that shouldn't we shouldn't ignore, which is which is that the the smart buyers the smart buyers in the space, they're the ones that are that they're coming to the table looking at the very opinionated offerings out there, and then they're saying, you know, I you know what I could do? I can build better than I can buy. And I I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to take a position here. Do you think that that attitude is more or less prevalent in the b to b space?

Well, by necessity, it has has had to have been more. I think I think there's a realization that it should be less, though, occurring, and I'm seeing it in their conversations. I was just two days ago, Ben, I was in Denver for an executive roundtable. So I'm a master b two b. We run we're a community all over The United States and some in the world around the world.

And we share these discussions, the same discussions we're having today about platforms and executive alignment and, you know, should I sell on Amazon or not, all those sorts of things. You know, those those come to the forefront in these conversations. And the conversation we had in Denver ties into what what we're talking about here. And and, you know, what's what's interesting is there's kind of a dichotomy. I mean, you've got folks that are, that are, you know, that have invested in the past.

They tend to be the distributors, They have invested in ecommerce and platforms in the past. And those folks, you know, some of them still maintain this, hey. You know, I I need to my buyer is different. I need to meet their needs. And to some degree, they're right, that their buyer is different because buyers do vary from category to category in b to b ecommerce or industries.

But there's there's as I mentioned, some of the ones who have done that investment at significant scale over the last ten, fifteen years are now saying, you know, I shouldn't own this. So I think you get a little more of that. Now the folks that are you know, again, this came out of our conversation in in Denver and other places around the country. We did we've done these round tables in Dallas and Atlanta and LA and Chicago and really all over the country. And those, and those, conversations, also, you know, where their companies haven't yet started their ecommerce journey.

And believe me, particularly amongst manufacturers, there's a lot of them. It still surprises me. They they are more leaning into, hey. We need we're not gonna solve this ourselves. We need we need technology.

We're not gonna build it ourselves. So that dichotomy, they haven't started yet. They're definitely leaning into third party, solutions. But at the end of the day, either both of them, the common theme is we need flexibility in what we deliver because our buyers' needs are always evolving. So thinking about a platform that gives them that flexibility to be able to add best of breed it's a best of breed world now, I think, in a lot of ways.

You referenced, you know, companies historically would go to where there's a best of suite, you know, where there's, hey. Everybody is you know, best of suite means, hey. It's a full stack solution. I can get everything I need in one place. There's there's this real heavy, heavy trend in the industry to move to you know, the term for it is composable commerce where you can attach different components and, you know, really get the best search or the best, you know, PIM solutions or any of that any of that kind of thing.

So, anyway, it's it's a it's an interesting evolution happening. Again, it does fall behind kind of where b to c is in a lot of ways because b to c is is there. But, again, we got more complexity here in this market, right, with b to b. All, yeah, all all very well said. I mean, I I and and I'm glad you mentioned composable because that that was, I mean, you were describing you were describing the use case.

And, I mean, there is an imperative, actually. I would I would just come back and even say there is an imperative to try and and to to to set yourself up for best of breed because these solutions one of the interesting things for me this in this evolution that you and I have witnessed, and I mean and you're you're you know, you've been around, you've been around this business longer, even longer than I have, you know, building up in the early days of of in the early days of digital and then and, you know, people business is actually going online and just sort of figuring out. I mean, it's a great time because it was pretty easy to total the greenfield, and you could do simple things that would make huge difference. And now we have this, you know, largely commoditized, this the space is is is well established, commoditized, but what we've seen, at least this is my theory, we have some of these these adjacent application scopes, things like customer engagement, payments, what what resource planning, warehouse management. These these topics, these the the the ones that have survived have have have come into being and survived the last ten years have grown into suites and platforms all on their own.

So so now you have a collection of platforms that you have to then Right. Get to agree on things. And so composable, I think, is the strategy that has emerged, you know, approach strategy that has emerged that says, hey. Will you we can we can take bits and bobs if they're if if these things are properly constructed, we can take the bits and bobs from from this thing, bits and bobs from this thing, and we can pull them together in, a cohesive, a cohesive app all around. So our our our app is our app is ours, but it really benefits ideally.

And the theory is it benefits from the the product development, the the many ecosystems that exist around each of these things. So that, like, if, you know, if I have I don't as a business, I shouldn't always have to I'll use some product language here. As a business, I shouldn't I shouldn't always have to, be the one driving, innovating on customer experience. I should be able to at least benefit partially on customer engagement, the the the the work coming out of a company that then that that that specializes in customer engagement. I do think we've lost the thread a bit or maybe this industry, my industry, is when I have I always I always start my hackles go up when I when I hear businesses speaking in terms of architecture rather than their requirements?

I mean, I I now so so whenever I hear, you know, a business someone from business talking about, oh, we need to be composed. We need to be headless. We need to be the well, what do you what do you mean? Like, what what what what what what do you think you mean when you say that? And and the reason I asked the question, and and everyone should ask the question, is what are the what are the underlying requirements for that?

Oh, well, we need to be able to pivot on customer engagement. Once we once we discover need, we need to be able to have that deployed within two weeks. Are these do you think let me see. It's kind of a maybe it's a pregnant question for me, but do you do you do you find that we've gone from this world in b two b? We've gone from this world of bespoke to, okay, we we're now invoking we're benefiting from the evolution of platforms, and then, oh, well, we can start put all this together in this this utopia of composability.

But then now the the businesses have have have seen what is involved in that, that there's maybe still a need for curation there. Well, yeah, for sure. So I think it's gotta start then with the customer. Right? So and and I always you know, I hear this, from from sometimes sometimes companies don't don't really invest in in digital the way they should until their customers scream at them.

I've got a case study in my book. Seriously. I love it. No. I'm serious.

I've got a I've got a case study in my book. It's from a company called Illumina. Right? It's two years ago, obviously. But, but it it it that's what happened, essentially.

The customers came to them and said and this is a 3 and a half billion dollar manufacturer of medical pro medical, products. They're a life sciences company. And their customers came to them and said, hey. Listen. Illumina, you need to make our this whole process easier.

Our our buyers and our our influencers, you know, the procurement teams and the people using the product, they all want to transact with you digitally. If you don't provide it, we're going to an alternative provider, basically. Right? It takes something like that sometimes to drive the decision. Now the we just did a survey, at Master b two b on customers.

So we we surveyed and the customers, excuse me, on on on b two b companies that talked about, you know you know, the the level of, yeah, investment. It's where our state of b to b ecommerce 2024. Right? So we we we got, 225 or 250 or so results from b to b manufacturers and, distributors. We asked them about, you know, how how and where are they making, investment decisions.

The one of the biggest takeaways from that was just the the fact that, you know, these, the need for investment is now being heard. I was blown away at the number of people, that said, hey. I now have sufficient, investment, or financial resources available to me from my board and from my c suite and c and my CFO to make the investments I need to make. The over more than I think it was about 60%. We're coming out with a study in the next couple of weeks.

Something around 60% said said they have the investment. But the thing that that comes with that, and this feels so b to c, is that there's fat now. There's a higher demand on time to return time to to value. So return on investment demands from that c suite, from the board are now higher than they've been in in any time in the past three years. We ask that question as well.

And so what I take out from that is that, you know, ultimately, this translates down to customer need, people feeling the pressure from new entrants. You know, we we talk a little bit about Amazon business if you'd like and what Amazon's doing. I spent a lot of time on that side of the fence, and, you know, working on and putting and putting real pressure in particularly in distribution. You know, Andy Hoare, my master b two b partner 25. Came out with a prediction.

Right? We said that this that we said this in '23, and we see it coming through over the last two years. There is pressure that we call it the great distributor squeeze. And that distributor squeeze is coming from new entrants like Amazon business, vertical marketplaces, but also manufacturers selling direct. We're in a we're in a a massive sea change right now in b two b.

It's because the dollars are finally getting invested into digital and ecommerce, and it's because, you know, the buyer has changed. And if you're not paying attention to what the buyer is doing and where they're looking, Amazon business, they're, you know, you're gonna lose relevance. So it's, you know, it's one of these really fascinating parts. And but I I I like to joke. It keeps me feeling young.

Right? Because because I I was in ecommerce twenty five years ago in, you know, 1999, 2000, 2001, pioneering stuff in b to c commerce. And, you know, this b to b world is experiencing some of the same disruption now that occurred then in b to c. And to me, it's exciting and fun, and companies that wanna take advantage of it can create massive opportunities for themselves. Well, yeah, coming off of the, yeah, for me, I was I was I was not a fan of, of, you know, zero interest zero interest days because we had really it masked that really I feel like there had been a a bit of an ice age when it came to meaningful capital.

I don't have a I don't have a a better term for it, but it seems like we've actually, what you're describing is this thawing of Mhmm. Of of of businesses actually deploying capital that they they care about. And and that that is always a great way to to recognize intent, recognize a moment. And so I'm gonna I'll I'll shift quickly just so we we can we can talk about, you know, one of your other areas of expertise, which you cited. And this is the work that you're doing, I think, at NCBA.

You know, just looking into, you know, looking into the Amazon and and really taking full advantage of of Amazon. It sounds like this is this is, quite the imperative at this point, for for a lot of people. I mean, it's it kinda depends on your business model. Right? So, we argue and we believe and we started the business because we believe that b two b manufacturers, in particular, have an imperative to control and manage their presence and take advantage of the opportunity that Amazon provides.

Because let's be honest, man. I mean, look at look at where Amazon business did for over $40,000,000,000 in b to b revenue last year, and that's just what ran through Amazon business. It doesn't include, you know, small businesses using personal Prime accounts to buy product. If you're not well represented on Amazon business, you're losing relevance with this new generation of buyers. Gen z, you know, millennials, they are natives there.

And so one of my most fun and scary activities been with with a I'm sitting there with a CEO of a manufacturing company. We work with a lot of very large companies, multibillion dollar companies. We'll we'll we'll we'll do a search on their product name on Amazon business, and we'll look at what comes up. And they've never heard of any of these brands. And then you look at you look at the volume, like, with tools that'll pull how much revenue they're doing.

Each individual product is doing $3.04, $510,000,000. And then you look at the price points in some cases and the quality of the product. Some cases will order the product. It'll be a similar quality. There's a perception that, you know, hey.

Just because it's coming out of, for example, China, guess what? You know? It's it's the same factories they're making coming out of products. I mean I mean, hey. You know?

Look. Harbor Freight Tools has a huge multibillion dollar business on this business model. They go direct into China. They pull business in from China. Their products in from China, sell them in their stores, and there's, you know, 1,500 stores now.

It's a wonderful business. The the guys, this has been done before. B two b is not insulated from this. And b two b buyers, you know, oh, my customer is different. You know?

Oh, they're not gonna buy from Amazon. Well, no. They will, particularly if they know what they want. And the fact is 74% of millennials avoid actively avoid sales reps, actively avoid sales reps. 74%, Where are they going?

They're they're they're ecom natives. You're not delivering with your own ecommerce. Your distributors aren't delivering with ecommerce in a in an effective way. Guess where they go? They're buying other products.

They're buying from Amazon. So the whole notion of our business was to go to traditional manufacturers and empower them to take advantage of this channel while avoiding channel conflict because, you know, the other complaint is, hey. I'm gonna I'm gonna disintermediate all my intermediate all of my traditional distribution. Well, if you do it right and don't sell the product to Amazon in a wholesale manner and you manage it through Seller Central, which is different way to sell on Amazon, you can then, you know, really effectively mitigate that conflict. So anyway, there's lots of you know, there's lots to unpack there.

But the point of the matter is Amazon business is here and it's growing dramatically, and it's an important thing that you have to consider. And if you're a distributor, you also need to understand what they're doing because guess what? They're, in many ways, competing with you, but it's also an opportunity for you for private label and other products. So it's a fascinating area, Ben. Amazon is just so good at staying focused on the customer, and now the b to b customer.

Right? So Yeah. Yeah. We do a whole pod I it's and we and we may. So I'm I'm gonna, yeah, regretfully, I'm gonna gonna bring us to a close here, but but I'm gonna I'm gonna see if I can tie tie some of these threads into a bow here.

So, and CEIBA, e n c e I b a, is, is is the place to go if they if if if this if if what if what Brian, not Andy, what Brian was just saying was is interesting, is interesting to you. And I now I have to ask, And, is this like a like a partial anagram of your name? No. It's actually, it's the name comes from the tree, which is the tallest tree in the Amazon Rainforest. Hence the logo.

We help our clients stand out. There you go. Okay. Okay. I mean, it is it is actually a partial anagram of of your name, but that makes a lot that that makes a lot more sense.

And then we have and then, of course, your, you know, your your seminal seminal work, billion dollar b two b ecommerce. Lots lots to do there. Could be another podcast. But but, again, you know, I've mentioned before how community comes up again and again, comes up again and again in in, you know, in this podcast. Master b two b, seems like who who who who who should be who should be there?

Yeah. It's a so it is a community. It's folks involved in digital transformation for their b two b business, distributors, brands. Do you have any gate on on sort sort of size of company or customer base? No.

I know. I mean, we we we tend to we tend to get a lot of mid market to enterprise that participate, but it's real it's open to everyone. We have an online forum. You go to masterb2b.com, masterb2b.com. And you can find you know, you can join the community.

You join the forum there. We have that's practitioners only. We run events all over the country, roundtables. We welcome practitioners together for these discussions about issues like we've talked about today. And we have an annual summit, which is coming up at the University of Chicago's Graduate School of Business.

It's actually just in June. And that's a gathering of a 130 leaders in B two b. So these are VPs of ecom, directors of ecom, chief digital officers, VPs and CTOs in the IT sector, heads of marketing and sales. If you're involved with digital aspects of your business, commerce or otherwise, digital experience, any of that, this is a place for you to share and learn with peers. It's, it's a very trusted sort of transparent, community to talk about the issues like we're talking about.

Yeah. In my right. Brian, in my, in my experience, this kind of this kind of well curated, well curated environment where you're where you're putting the people who are who are really having to make these decisions together, the the value, you you really you can't put a price on it. One parting question. What do you do with all your spare time?

Yeah. That'll happen. It's just this, folks. He is he is a he is a man with a with a with a singular dedication. Brian, look forward to meeting you in person sometime.

But for now, I have to say thank you very, very much for helping us kick off season two of Commerce Famous. Been an honor to be here, Ben. Thanks for the conversation, and enjoyed it.